I hate Cesar Millan.......please delete if this isn't allowed.
#11
(This conversation has been a great reminder for me to be mindful of my behaviour towards my 4 1/2 month old BC when she's driving me mad, she's just a puppy in a human world after all- thanks so much you guys)
Reply
#12
Cesar Milan in my opinion has put the dog world back 40 years.
I don't even know where to start.
Just say for one minute you had a so called dominant dog who has acquired the so called Alpha position, so you decide you now are going to be Alpha, how do you think that is going to work for you.
I believe in leadership not Dominance or Alpha,
I believe in assertiveness and confidence. Not aggression and violence.
Don't get me wrong dogs fall on a spectrum of how strong minded they are, a bit like us.

I see many dogs that are not be given the reassurance of a confident leader, a bit like we should be with are kids, these dogs are not dominant they are stressed and out of their depth. How that is expressed depends on the dog.
Reply
#13
Yes LB, you can use R+/- & P+/- in a non-dominant way. For no other reason than explaining what all the R's and P's are about here's a little chart.


Attached Files
.jpg   4 Quadrants of Operant Conditioning.jpg (Size: 191.03 KB / Downloads: 171)
Reply
#14
Quirkydog,'index.php?page=Thread&postID=192109#post192109 Wrote:Cesar Milan in my opinion has put the dog world back 40 years.
I don't even know where to start.
Just say for one minute you had a so called dominant dog who has acquired the so called Alpha position, so you decide you now are going to be Alpha, how do you think that is going to work for you.
I believe in leadership not Dominance or Alpha,
I believe in assertiveness and confidence. Not aggression and violence.
Don't get me wrong dogs fall on a spectrum of how strong minded they are, a bit like us.

I see many dogs that are not be given the reassurance of a confident leader, a bit like we should be with are kids, these dogs are not dominant they are stressed and out of their depth. How that is expressed depends on the dog.

WELL SAID Quirky. My sentiment exactly, I just couldn't put it with such eloquence and brevity.
Reply
#15
Thanks for putting that up Trifan, that's exactly what I was talking about. But if you add more situations it gets more confusing. Take desensitizing something scarry for example. You could be using R+ to reward calm behavior but wouldn't you at the same time be using P+ to discourage the fearful behavior? (giving something, a treat for example, to reward the calm but at the same time you're making the fearful behavior less likely to happen. Punishment means to make something less likely to happen) So in that sense, wouldn't it be both R+ and P+?
Reply
#16
I have stopped listening to or reading trainers. Aside from fun game trick books ( they do not promote positive negative re enforcement or any style so much) they are more like picture books with instructions of mechanics of an action of a trick. I have only skimmed through books ...picking and choosing information I may find useful or investigate further. I can't afford agility training classes or competitive type things to socialize with dog people in the real world. It may be better as I am not swayed or annoyed by someone. I have glimpsed quite a few of the you tubers and tv personalities. They seem like well meaning modern day dog medicine men. Have I extracted bits here and there sure. Some of it I find common sense. That being said I would not know an R+ from a hole in the ground either. All I know is I like being a part of my dog's world and he mine we have fun learning from experiences that come to us or we create. No labels or serious stuff. All these shows, books, seminars and training classes and technical terms. In the end a dog loves his human and the human him or her.

I sensed about the wolf pack family type phenomenon instinctually before I even set foot in middle school biology. For the sheer want of family that a dog fills in some children's lives. All this science and commercialism of training, dog foods, and products. Just seems to lure more people to get dog's. Hey! There's a tool or trainer for every problem! Unfortunately with the more we learn and understand this animal that is one of the unfortunate side effects. And dogs in shelters or worse off.
Reply
#17
LB I don't think so because in desensitisation you are not actually using the thing they are afraid of as a correction but instead using it as a training aid.
eg: if your dog is reactive to trucks as my Shepherd was, I would use a park or paddock and only go as close to the road as caused him to glance in the direction of the noise of the trucks but not be fearful. Engage with him and reward for focus on me instead of glancing at the trucks in the distance. If engagement was not immediate, easily forth coming and able to be maintained you move away further on the next try, then gradually move forward each few days.
If I had given him a leash correction or verbal correction for the glance and then rewarded him for his focus on me, then yes there would be P+ and R+ in play but why do that if you can just be attentive to your position, engagement and reward timing as you edge closer to the trucks each day.
Reply
#18
I think I kinda see what you're getting at. Thanks for the clarification.
Reply
#19
I don't like Milan either. A friend, who also doesn't like him, brought to my attention an episode where he was trying to train a lab. The dog clearly told him a ridiculous number of times that the dog was very uncomfortable and was going to bite. It was a very honest dog. It did just exactly what it said it was going to do and nailed Milan pretty good. Milan then stated that the dog bit him without warning. That tells me all I need to know about his dog training abilities.
Gotta love 'em.
Reply
#20
That was the "Show down with Holly" episode. I was horrified at how Milan handled that poor dog. And I agree with you, the first time I watched the video I kept saying "Back off, back off you are going to get bit". This is why I despise him so much.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)