Test Your Knowledge: What happened?
#1
Getting Ember to stand is about as hard, and as fun, as giving her a bath.

Turns out all it took was a change for the handler. Can you spot the difference?

Fail:




Success:


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Gotcha Day: November 14, 2015
Vet-Listed Birthday: May 2, 2014
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#2
You stopped bending over her. If you go back and look at the first video, when you were having success was when you held the treat a little lower in front of her. I used to teach the stand down on one knee beside the dog, but alas, I'm too old for that now. My knees hurt, so now I sit on the floor.
Gotta love 'em.
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#3
Congratulations ! I am wondering if her hesitancy to stand is because she is not actually being asked to do something else. Her sit is so solid and she seems to want to do what I aim for which is to stay in whatever position they were last asked to do until asked to do otherwise or released. I use treats for luring into another behaviour but if they break the last behaviour before they are asked with either a verbal or hand signal cue, they don't get the treat and are asked to go back to where they were without receiving the treat. I use either the luring or a treat dropped on the floor to practice controlling the impulse to break from a behaviour until asked.
Don't get me wrong, I am SO not criticising, you are way, way ahead of me in respect to modern methods with all the Fenzi work. I genuinely want to understand the methodology. My concern is that luring to a new behaviour without asking for one (attaching a cue) might be counterproductive in respect to a solid sit AND stay etc. i.e.: ok I do what I am asked but if food is on offer it is OK to break from what I am asked. Ay meal times the boys are asked to sit and their meals are served but they do not go to their meals until released. Same theory with crates. Haha, I left really early one day and asked my son to let them out when he got up. He opened their crates and was totally bewildered as to why they didn't just come out. He said,"oh mum, I was worried they were sick and what should I do, I was talking to them but they stayed put". He eventually realised what the problem was, LOL They are not overloaded with "control" but barging out of crates is one thing we are pretty strict on.

EDIT. Your home is looking lovely !
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#4
(06-28-2017, 12:16 PM)Gideon Wrote: You stopped bending over her.  If you go back and look at the first video, when you were having success was when you held the treat a little lower in front of her.  I used to teach the stand down on one knee beside the dog, but alas, I'm too old for that now.  My knees hurt, so now I sit on the floor.

Oh GM, I so understand the knee issues. Problem for me is that if I sit on the floor I can only get back up via a few not so graceful moves which includes getting into the yoga position of "Downward dog" Oh dear, not a good look I can assure you.
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#5
Close GM! I'm so tall, I HAVE to bend to meet her. It was a turn of my body (which consequently put me NOT over the top of her at the same time). I put myself in Heal position for her and she started taking the lure bait all of a sudden. It was a fun find! About the bending down - have you ever found that kneeling elicits a completely different set of behaviors? If I lower myself, she tries to go lower (a lot of "downs" and lowly-offered behaviors, slow and methodical thinking). If I stand, she has more energy, may even try to get up to reach me, and moves more. So I was having a really hard time with kneeling and asking for a stand - everything I did made her "down" instead (right down to getting that treat under her nose and chest which is supposed to pop that back end up but doesn't work on her).

Trifan, you are right. When I presented the success video for class I was advised to reward the sitting because it IS a separate behavior that I want to keep solid. I didn't know things like that mattered. So much to learn still! I hadn't thought about the "neatness" between two behaviors either. Wonder if she's a bit OCD with her training. My word if so, I got ME in DOG FORM! Start me on one task and it is nearly impossible for me to think outside of the box on either another task or a different version of the current one. That makes so much sense LOL.

If anything, what I've gotten out of this class so far is more confidence in trying different handler positions to get what I need from her. If I face her head on or even sideways, she is going to have a very solid first behavior. If I want her to be ready to move, I need to either move her away from me and bring her in, OR position myself to look like I'm about to move in the same direction.
[Image: e5Qmm5.png]


Gotcha Day: November 14, 2015
Vet-Listed Birthday: May 2, 2014
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#6
Oh man sorry - thanks Trifan on the compliment! The house is really coming together. It's a wreck already tho because NOW I have to be out of the storage unit by Friday and it was housing the last of keepsakes, mistakenly grabbed brother's boxes, and unwanted furniture. Every time I get a space I can enjoy and see decorated we destroy it in 24 hours LOL! Now Ember just looks at boxes like ".... again?" I feel the same way, girly.
[Image: e5Qmm5.png]


Gotcha Day: November 14, 2015
Vet-Listed Birthday: May 2, 2014
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#7
I was more talking about identifying the different behaviour you want as you lure her. You are asking her for a sit each time but in the change to a stand there is nothing identifying that you are "asking" for a different behaviour i.e.: stand. I am seeing a hesitancy to come out of the sit, kind of like, "but, but, but you told me to sit but oh ok I want that treat so I'll disregard the last direction you gave me". That's what I was meaning when I referred to impulse control exercises when I train this. If my last request was a sit, I will test it with luring or dropping a treat on the floor just out of reach. Only when I "ask" for a stand or other behaviour or just release them do I want them to leave the sit. I am just wondering if by not using a cue could it weaken the sit ? Like, does sit mean sit and stay or does it mean sit and it's OK to be lured out of it. Will she know she is getting a reward for understanding and obeying a cue or getting a reward because she could be lured out of the sit ?

I gotta start getting into Fenzi work, I just love what I see in all the posts and articles Denise puts out. What you have done with Ember is the proof in the putting as we say over here. I have so much to learn !!
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#8
That's actually a really good question. I'll see if my instructors have any input in that area. It really is a great school - I already have August's session picked out - they have one for couch potato dogs and how to get them INTERESTED in moving Big Grin I may regret that one though!

https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index....7#syllabus
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Gotcha Day: November 14, 2015
Vet-Listed Birthday: May 2, 2014
Reply
#9
(06-28-2017, 03:44 PM)Ember Wrote: Close GM! I'm so tall, I HAVE to bend to meet her. It was a turn of my body (which consequently put me NOT over the top of her at the same time). I put myself in Heal position for her and she started taking the lure bait all of a sudden. It was a fun find! About the bending down - have you ever found that kneeling elicits a completely different set of behaviors? If I lower myself, she tries to go lower (a lot of "downs" and lowly-offered behaviors, slow and methodical thinking). If I stand, she has more energy, may even try to get up to reach me, and moves more. So I was having a really hard time with kneeling and asking for a stand - everything I did made her "down" instead (right down to getting that treat under her nose and chest which is supposed to pop that back end up but doesn't work on her).

Trifan, you are right. When I presented the success video for class I was advised to reward the sitting because it IS a separate behavior that I want to keep solid. I didn't know things like that mattered. So much to learn still! I hadn't thought about the "neatness" between two behaviors either. Wonder if she's a bit OCD with her training. My word if so, I got ME in DOG FORM! Start me on one task and it is nearly impossible for me to think outside of the box on either another task or a different version of the current one. That makes so much sense LOL.

If anything, what I've gotten out of this class so far is more confidence in trying different handler positions to get what I need from her. If I face her head on or even sideways, she is going to have a very solid first behavior. If I want her to be ready to move, I need to either move her away from me and bring her in, OR position myself to look like I'm about to move in the same direction.

Yes, you were still bending, but I said you quit bending OVER HER.  I've had several dogs with the same issue, including Gideon.
Gotta love 'em.
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#10
(06-28-2017, 02:57 PM)Trifan Wrote:
(06-28-2017, 12:16 PM)Gideon Wrote: You stopped bending over her.  If you go back and look at the first video, when you were having success was when you held the treat a little lower in front of her.  I used to teach the stand down on one knee beside the dog, but alas, I'm too old for that now.  My knees hurt, so now I sit on the floor.

Oh GM, I so understand the knee issues. Problem for me is that if I sit on the floor I can only get back up via a few not so graceful moves which includes getting into the yoga position of "Downward dog" Oh dear, not a good look I can assure you.

I have issues getting up from a down too, but from kneeling it isn't going to happen ever.  I get swelling inside my knee joint and behind my knee cap if I keep pressure on my knee, not to mention that it is just plain excruciating.
Gotta love 'em.
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